Curse

Mineria · Dec 20, 2007, 07:42 AM // 07:42

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Originally Posted by twicky_kid

What I have noticed in WoW is MORE players are jumping into pvp than ever before.

Because of sick endgame raiding requirements, and the easyest way to get better gear for more casual players is via pvpee.

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Originally Posted by twicky_kid

This is just the same as a movie critic. No one really cares what the critics think of a movie. They will still go see it and have their own opinions. PvP players give 2 shits about what game critics think of WoW's pvp. Millions are having fun in pvp and tournaments are opening up to appeal to the real hardcore players while making it easier for new players to get the gear they need.

It is not a critic, it is a comparing pvp functions.
Funny though is that teamwork in GW's AB most of the time is as crappy as in WoW's AB.

WoW's arena system, look the rankings, see what classes that are missing and then come back talking about pvp balance.
Balance is where GW has its strong side.

erk · Dec 20, 2007, 07:52 AM // 07:52

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Originally Posted by Riotgear

Because fair matches are more fun, and more entertaining. Why do you think the ladder exists in the first place?

Smurf vs Smurf sounds fun and fair, if they are that common as people make out then they should be a frequent source of entertainment for the smurfs involved.

The ladder use to have a purpose until A.net tipped the AT bucket on it, the ladder as it originally was created exists no more.

twicky_kid · Dec 20, 2007, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mineria

It is not a critic, it is a comparing pvp functions.
Funny though is that teamwork in GW's AB most of the time is as crappy as in WoW's AB.

WoW's arena system, look the rankings, see what classes that are missing and then come back talking about pvp balance.
Balance is where GW has its strong side.

Same can be said about GW not every class is used. Its stupid to think that every class will be used in ever aspect of the game. That will never happen in either game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Because fair matches are more fun, and more entertaining. Why do you think the ladder exists in the first place?

So you think that smurf vs noob is fun? Either way you look at it top teams will be playing a noob team at some point or another. They either do it after 30 minutes in their main guild or within 90 seconds in a smurf. I'd rather them do it in their main guild and prevent all the ladder abuse smurfs caused.

red orc · Dec 20, 2007, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Same can be said about GW not every class is used. Its stupid to think that every class will be used in ever aspect of the game. That will never happen in either game.

So you think that smurf vs noob is fun? Either way you look at it top teams will be playing a noob team at some point or another. They either do it after 30 minutes in their main guild or within 90 seconds in a smurf. I'd rather them do it in their main guild and prevent all the ladder abuse smurfs caused.

You cannot stop Smurfing. In any game system you have, people will find how to "abuse" it, this is the human nature. In games where matchmaking is involved, smurfing will always rise. We learn to live with it. I play a low level guild and once in a while we're faced with a smurf. We can tell the difference between a guild in our rank and a guild with high end players. We may also lose to a gimmic from time to time, although we usealy find thier weak spot and break them. We dont take it too hard anyway. Anyways, it's just 2 points so what is the big deal ?
Low level GVG guilds, win some and lose some and dont make a big deal out of it. High level GVG guild get their position in turnomenst, so why bother over a loss on the ladder.

Dzan · Dec 20, 2007, 12:21 PM // 12:21

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Originally Posted by Riotgear

No, you don't.

Ease of accessibility is accomplished by providing an unbroken avenue from the point of installation to the higher levels of play. You do not need shallow strategy or bad balance to create content that caters to all levels of play, or create a functional ladder system.

Depth of strategy is accomplished by having complex, rewarding gameplay aspects that take time, practice, and talent to master. That does not preclude less-rewarding and less-difficult methods of play, and certainly does not require butchering balance.

Balance is accomplished by having a strong vision of how things should operate and guiding things to that point, while realizing what was better in concept than implementation and shelving it. This vision is essential for deep strategy to begin with, and can be integrated at all levels of play.

Nice dissertation, but it doesn't address how those three things interact. You explained how each one can be done separately but you don't show how its possible to have them simultaneously.

I still contend that having a game, like guild wars, with complexity and balance creates a high learning curve that reduces accessibility, there is simply no way for a new player to get up a steep learning curve without great talent or great time investment. Anything you do to lessen the learning curve will either simplify the depth of strategy or imbalance the game.

At the other end of the spectrum you have a game like Uno, with easy accessibility and perfect balance, but almost no depth of strategy.

Then the third possibility, a game with ease of accessibility, and depth of strategy but totally out of balance. This would be Tombs in Guild Wars in the pre-Factions days when IWAY was dominant and a person who just bought the game could be winning halls regularly within a month of installing. The drawback is it relies on one imbalanced, easy to operate build.

To cite Star Craft as an example of getting all three, I would disagree. It does not have easy accessibility. Sure, you can figure out the basics of the game pretty easily, but to get into high end competition requires just as much time and/or effort as Guild Wars, maybe even more so.

red orc · Dec 20, 2007, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Nice dissertation, but it doesn't address how those three things interact. You explained how each one can be done separately but you don't show how its possible to have them simultaneously.

I still contend that having a game, like guild wars, with complexity and balance creates a high learning curve that reduces accessibility, there is simply no way for a new player to get up a steep learning curve without great talent or great time investment. Anything you do to lessen the learning curve will either simplify the depth of strategy or imbalance the game.

At the other end of the spectrum you have a game like Uno, with easy accessibility and perfect balance, but almost no depth of strategy.

Then the third possibility, a game with ease of accessibility, and depth of strategy but totally out of balance. This would be Tombs in Guild Wars in the pre-Factions days when IWAY was dominant and a person who just bought the game could be winning halls regularly within a month of installing. The drawback is it relies on one imbalanced, easy to operate build.

To cite Star Craft as an example of getting all three, I would disagree. It does not have easy accessibility. Sure, you can figure out the basics of the game pretty easily, but to get into high end competition requires just as much time and/or effort as Guild Wars, maybe even more so.

Right, and the trick is to make the learning curve fun.
If the learning curve is converted ino the game itself and is made fun, just like PVE adavncment is fun, then you've got a winning PVP game.

Mineria · Dec 20, 2007, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Same can be said about GW not every class is used. Its stupid to think that every class will be used in ever aspect of the game. That will never happen in either game.

I don't agree upon that.
Every class in GW has its use, no matter where you go.
Just because there are some team builds used for doing things faster, doesn't mean that some classes can't be used.
Concerning the PvP part, which was what my reply was upon, every class can and is on a top team in GW.
Which differs GW PvP from WoW PvP, hence why I can say GW has a better class balance towards PvP.
Blizzard can't do that in WoW unless they add sone option to have a seperate PvP build beside the PvE stuff.
They got way much more PvE balance to take care of, since raid instances are more team work related then what we got in GW.
Plus that WoW is a mmorpg.

Riotgear · Dec 20, 2007, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Same can be said about GW not every class is used. Its stupid to think that every class will be used in ever aspect of the game. That will never happen in either game.

Balance is essential in WoW because respeccing requires dropping a significant amount of gold in addition to collecting a gear set for that spec to be competitive, and changing to a different class requires an even greater time investment.

In GW, I have a maxed-out PvP character ready to go within minutes.

That's hardly the point anyway. Mortal Strike is the most imbalanced skill to ever exist in a PvP game and they refuse to touch it. For those who don't know: Mortal Strike = Instant melee attack that leaves a 10-second unremovable 50% healing reduction debuff on the target, and has a recharge of 6 seconds. Prot is nonexistent. Dispels recharge instantly. Warriors are the gods of PvP, and the devs seem to like it that way.

twicky_kid · Dec 20, 2007, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

That's hardly the point anyway. Mortal Strike is the most imbalanced skill to ever exist in a PvP game and they refuse to touch it. For those who don't know: Mortal Strike = Instant melee attack that leaves a 10-second unremovable 50% healing reduction debuff on the target, and has a recharge of 6 seconds. Prot is nonexistent. Dispels recharge instantly. Warriors are the gods of PvP, and the devs seem to like it that way.

Wars aren't the gods of pvp in GWs? That's new to me.

I do agree its very easy to get started in GW's pvp. Rolling a character or getting the skills you need takes very little time. Then all of a sudden you find yourself at a wall. That wall is getting a team. For most players its impossible to overcome.

DarkNecrid · Dec 20, 2007, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Ya...

Mortal Strike is basically a million times better Lingering Curse.

DreamWind · Dec 20, 2007, 01:52 PM // 13:52

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Originally Posted by wuzzman

I think its safe to say that between 70-80% of the reasons new players aren't coming aboard the pvp train, and probably including the ones that got off would be:

crap_shit community
crap_shit community
crap_shit community

This is such a load. It tires me when people say the PvP community killed PvP. Let me put it this way: if PvP had better rewards for play than PvE did (similar to WoW model), than the entire Guild Wars population would move to PvP regardless. Blizzard > Anet at figuring out this fact and implementing it properly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Nice dissertation, but it doesn't address how those three things interact. You explained how each one can be done separately but you don't show how its possible to have them simultaneously.

To cite Star Craft as an example of getting all three, I would disagree. It does not have easy accessibility. Sure, you can figure out the basics of the game pretty easily, but to get into high end competition requires just as much time and/or effort as Guild Wars, maybe even more so.

Starcraft is actually a perfect example of all three interacting. The big difference is that high end competition in Starcraft only requires practicing the game a lot. You pick up the game and play it. Thats all.

High end competition in Guild Wars requires: money to start, grinding unlocks, finding 7 or more people who play at the exact same time as you do on the same days with similar schedules who play the same part of the game you do, actually being able to play with these said people without rage quitting, and THEN finally actually playing the game in hopes that all of the others want to play the same amount of time you do.

You can't even play Guild Wars until you have fulfilled all the other requirements. These restrictions keep out a load of players. HUGE difference. I can go pick up and play Starcraft right now all day if I wanted. I can't do the same with GvG.

Riotgear · Dec 20, 2007, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Wars aren't the gods of pvp in GWs? That's new to me.

Again, it takes me about 2 minutes to roll a maxed-out warrior in GW. Guess how long it takes to roll a warrior, level it to 70, and gear them out for PvP?

The problem with WoW is that you are faced with a massive barrier to entry unless you rolled something that was competent in PvP at day one. Balance is a MUCH bigger problem in it than it is in GW, because it does not just eliminate strategies, it eliminates players.

twicky_kid · Dec 20, 2007, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Again, it takes me about 2 minutes to roll a maxed-out warrior in GW. Guess how long it takes to roll a warrior, level it to 70, and gear them out for PvP?

2 weeks to get to 70. Another 2 weeks to get all the gear you need. So in the end 1 month. It will take you longer if you want to use some of the crafting professions to make bop gear but that's the only real time sink that I have found.

Now it takes you 2 minutes to make a war in GW. How long does it take you to make a guild, get a core group, make sure they all have vent, make a build, have everyone agree on the build, and have everyone show up at the same time on a regular basis? Then after all that hope your team doesn't fall apart because of various reasons (mostly due to personality clashes).

Its taken well over a month in my experience to get anything going with a guild for GvG. When I did make guilds or co-leader of a guild I usually had a 3 month plan if not longer.

Its easy to say I can roll a warrior in 2 minutes. Then you get to spend an ungodly amount of hours staring at it because you don't have a team.

Riotgear · Dec 20, 2007, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

2 weeks to get to 70. Another 2 weeks to get all the gear you need.

You'll have all the gear you need in 2 weeks in WoW? Have you actually played that game?

Quote:

How long does it take you to make a guild, get a core group, make sure they all have vent, make a build, have everyone agree on the build, and have everyone show up at the same time on a regular basis?

And you don't have to do that to get a decent arena team up in WoW?

EDIT -- This is getting dangerously off-topic.

twicky_kid · Dec 20, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

You'll have all the gear you need in 2 weeks in WoW? Have you actually played that game?

And you don't have to do that to get a decent arena team up in WoW?

EDIT -- This is getting dangerously off-topic.

Not really too off topic because it shows a good comparison of the 2 games. If you're not playing GW you are playing something else and its probably WoW. People are leaving GW for the alternative and there are reasons why. Hopefully Anet can learn something from it.

To explain the 2 weeks. You can buy Season 1 Arena gear with honor and marks now. It takes a little over 100k honor to buy the entire set + weapon. You can easily make 15k honor a day if you really pushed it (1 week is a very achievable goal). 10k is what most people make in a day.

Yes I have played the game I have 3 lvl 70s on 1 server and 2 lvl 70s on another. S1 gear for 2 of em so far which are the only 2 I want to pvp with.

Finding a team for Arena is very easy on a pvp server. Players join the server with the sole purpose in mind of doing pvp at some point or another. I'm currently on a server with 21k horde players. Majority of players being lvl 70s. That's a huge list of players than potentially be in my group.

I've found that team set up is very quick in WoW. Its easy to find players to fill the spots and the teams are not as big. This makes teams very quick to make.

When I do compare the 2 games and actual time and money spent (in my case at least, results may vary) I found less time and money being spent in WoW.

About all the reasons of why GW is dying and ATs are a failure has already been said. Its been said even before ATs got here. Anet is not committed to fixing GW. They have not put forth any reall commitment for a very long time. People see this and are moving on.

Bliz is very committed to WoW. They fix problems. Some changes they make are not always embraced but they do tweaks till its right. They let you know the changes before they happen. They even reverse some changes they made after it was recognized as bad and they admit it was a bad move.

For me I'm more interested in the company than the game. The company's policies shows me where the game will go. This is the reason I loved GW so much in beta. Anet was saying everything most players wanted to hear as far as what they would do as a company. They turned their backs on that and so the players turned their backs on Anet.

Made In Ascalon · Dec 20, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Not really too off topic because it shows a good comparison of the 2 games. If you're not playing GW you are playing something else and its probably WoW. People are leaving GW for the alternative and there are reasons why. Hopefully Anet can learn something from it.

I hope not.

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To explain the 2 weeks. You can buy Season 1 Arena gear with honor and marks now. It takes a little over 100k honor to buy the entire set + weapon. You can easily make 15k honor a day if you really pushed it (1 week is a very achievable goal). 10k is what most people make in a day.

WoW has worked itself into a huge hole with honor in that the only GOOD way of collecting honor is doing AV. Making 10k honor takes around 2 hours, since games now last about 10-15 minutes and net about 800 honor each not on weekends. And you better pray that someone doesn't cap the wrong graveyards like an ass and starts an hour long turtle-fest.

They also made the mistake of promoting AFKing by making it so that everyone makes the exact same amount of honor no matter what. The report system doesn't do much other than encourage people to leave the cave every so often to remove the dishonor debuff or make it look like they're doing something useful.

Every other form of battleground PvP is solely done for collecting marks or if somebody is masochistic enough to get fun out of it. So, the only form of PvP that isn't full of AIDS are Arenas, which require weeks of either AFKing in AV or being bored out of your mind in AV to even think about competing in. I'm so thankful Guild Wars isn't like this, no matter what problems it does have.

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I've found that team set up is very quick in WoW. Its easy to find players to fill the spots and the teams are not as big. This makes teams very quick to make.

Teams that are quickly put together tend to be unreliable and bad, so I don't see this as a particular benefit of WoW.

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When I do compare the 2 games and actual time and money spent (in my case at least, results may vary) I found less time and money being spent in WoW.

You are either crazy or you lack perspective. Guild Wars is 10x more instantly gratifying than WoW.

Quote:

Bliz is very committed to WoW. They fix problems. Some changes they make are not always embraced but they do tweaks till its right. They let you know the changes before they happen. They even reverse some changes they made after it was recognized as bad and they admit it was a bad move.

You speak as if Anet has never fixed a problem before, or reversed a change that the community greatly disagrees with. Making spirits cause exhaustion comes to mind.

Blizzard is very bipolar when it comes to fixing problems. I remember that they stated, at blizzcon, that they planned on fixing feral druid PvP viability and were aware of how laughable it was. Next thing I knew, the next patch was about to come out and Bornakk came on the druid forum saying "We have no plans for changing feral druids, we believe they're fine, L2P".

Meanwhile, they allow 2vs2 arenas to stay completely dominated by three classes- warlocks, arms warriors, and resto druids- and refuse to address them, not too unlike the neglect of TA in GW. Arms warriors dominate every form of arena, really, because healing is MASSIVELY overpowered and they are the only choice. The Hunter MS buff is laughable along with every other buff except for the arcane shot buff, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and the minimum distance buff, which only took them since the beginning of the game to add. Honestly, I don't see any difference in apathy and brainlessness between Anet and Blizzard skill balances.

Quote:

For me I'm more interested in the company than the game. The company's policies shows me where the game will go. This is the reason I loved GW so much in beta. Anet was saying everything most players wanted to hear as far as what they would do as a company. They turned their backs on that and so the players turned their backs on Anet.

I still have faith in Anet. They've made a lot of screw ups, but they've made a lot of great, intuitive changes. They might have lost their momentum recently due to GW2 being in progress, so, I'm hoping it's at least going to be worth it.

twicky_kid · Dec 20, 2007, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Made In Ascalon

WoW has worked itself into a huge hole with honor in that the only GOOD way of collecting honor is doing AV. Making 10k honor takes around 2 hours, since games now last about 10-15 minutes and net about 800 honor each not on weekends. And you better pray that someone doesn't cap the wrong graveyards like an ass and starts an hour long turtle-fest.

Wrong. AV is not the only way. AV is the AFK fest so its the easiest if you want to use that method. Other BGs make more faster. You are over exaggerating the honor per hour as well. Most players make 1k an hour. With a premade you can easily make 2k an hour. If I made 5k an hour I'd be able to the buy the entire S1 set in 1 day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Made In Ascalon

Teams that are quickly put together tend to be unreliable and bad, so I don't see this as a particular benefit of WoW.

Again depends on your server. I've had a lot of pugs work out great on my server. It also allowed me to get a good list of pvp players that I can call on any time like I used to be able to do in GW. Everyone on my list in GW has quit or doesn't play serious anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Made In Ascalon

You are either crazy or you lack perspective. Guild Wars is 10x more instantly gratifying than WoW.

Notice I said "in my case, results may vary." Every one has a different experience. I've explained mine. You explained your's. Is either right? No, its an opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Made In Ascalon

You speak as if Anet has never fixed a problem before, or reversed a change that the community greatly disagrees with. Making spirits cause exhaustion comes to mind.

They didn't keep to their ethics. They said they would have monthly updates. That lasted for about 3 months. They said less grind. They added titles and rank. They said pvp would be easy to access for new players. They removed the premade list. They said gear wouldn't matter but allow the 15% dmg weapons to stay in the game without change even to this day. Gear did matter up until they didn't allow armor swaps. After making changes to skill they allow it to remain broken for 4-6 months at a time. Just look at deadly paradox.

In hind sight some players actually preferred the exhaustion because it lowered the casting cost to a playable level. By the time the spirit recharged the exhaustion was gone a long time ago. After the reversal they were put back at 25e where they will never be played.

It takes forever for Anet to fix even a small problem. Then you see crap like "changed icon GUI for store button." They make changes to stuff no one really cares about and ignore the big issues. Then by the time they get to the big issues its already ruined the game and the change has come too late, like 6 months to late.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Made In Ascalon

Blizzard is very bipolar when it comes to fixing problems. I remember that they stated, at blizzcon, that they planned on fixing feral druid PvP viability and were aware of how laughable it was. Next thing I knew, the next patch was about to come out and Bornakk came on the druid forum saying "We have no plans for changing feral druids, we believe they're fine, L2P".

Meanwhile, they allow 2vs2 arenas to stay completely dominated by three classes- warlocks, arms warriors, and resto druids- and refuse to address them, not too unlike the neglect of TA in GW. Arms warriors dominate every form of arena, really, because healing is MASSIVELY overpowered and they are the only choice. The Hunter MS buff is laughable along with every other buff except for the arcane shot buff, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and the minimum distance buff, which only took them since the beginning of the game to add. Honestly, I don't see any difference in apathy and brainlessness between Anet and Blizzard skill balances.

I expect communication break downs to happen. It happens quite often in GW.

In the example you are giving they had every right not to change the druid for the exact reasons you just described. Keep in mind that changing anything will effect pve. GW has the exact same problem so there is a limit on how much and to what extent changes can be done to a class. WoW has a test server you can play on at any given time with the proposed changes before they go live.

You are right about the healing but that is because its a dps game not a spike game like GW. If GW was a dps game you'd see more of the healing debuffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Made In Ascalon

I still have faith in Anet. They've made a lot of screw ups, but they've made a lot of great, intuitive changes. They might have lost their momentum recently due to GW2 being in progress, so, I'm hoping it's at least going to be worth it.

I lost my faith with the announcement of ATs. ATs told me that they are not willing to put forth the effort anymore to handle pvp. Its easier for them to put it on an automated system and let it run itself. Which means they don't have the man power to maintain the game with the system they had been using before. When a company uses an automated system for anything its because its grown too big to handle with man power or its more cost effective. At the same time automated systems always sacrifice some level of customer support.

I don't think I've ever seen a game that had a schedule for its players to play. We know that system doesn't work now but we could have told you that before it was ever introduced......actually we tried to tell them it wasn't going to work.....oh well. ATs were a huge failure at announcement. I remember a majority of player I knew quit at that time more than any other time that I can remember.

ensoriki · Dec 20, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Be nice if we had 4 or 5 AT's a day instead of 3

Allows for people to find better times for their guilds.

Gigashadow · Dec 20, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

And you don't have to do that to get a decent arena team up in WoW?

Honestly the getting people part was a lot easier in WoW than GW. For one thing, you only need 5 people on the team, with maybe 1-2 alternates if your team is at the levels where you want to be able to meta against who else is currently queueing.

There is more of an in-game community in WoW than there is in GW. You can inspect and chat with people walking around in the city (This guy has no 5v5 team but is rated well in 2s and 3s? Ask him). You can contact people in guilds who raid with yours (even if you personally don't raid), or someone from your server who you thought was good in some AB or WSG you played, etc.

Guild Wars doesn't really have that kind of in-game community. People constantly switch between multiple PvE and PvP characters, and you'll practically never see the same person twice in an outpost, or even recognise most guilds. The PvE and PvP players are almost completely isolated.

Gigashadow · Dec 20, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Again, it takes me about 2 minutes to roll a maxed-out warrior in GW. Guess how long it takes to roll a warrior, level it to 70, and gear them out for PvP?

The problem with WoW is that you are faced with a massive barrier to entry unless you rolled something that was competent in PvP at day one. Balance is a MUCH bigger problem in it than it is in GW, because it does not just eliminate strategies, it eliminates players.

Yes, this was a huge problem. When my friends and I started our arena team, we were stuck with the classes we had, as we didn't have the time or inclination to level and pvp gear multiple 70s.

In Guild Wars, whenever you are beaten by a team in TA, you always have the option of simply copying their build, learning how to play it, and finding out what beats it. If despite doing this you keep losing all the time, you then know it is because you are being outplayed. You can also swap people around and have them learn to play all the different roles, so that everyone has a well rounded experience of how the other roles play.

In WoW, you might get decimated by a particular setup (or even worse, the entire meta shifts to that setup) that simply has a massive advantage against your team, and there is really little you can do about it unless you want to kick your friends out of your team and replace them with people who have the classes you need. Also, if you want to find out what it is like to play your team's pally, and for him to play the priest, good luck to both of you leveling one up! (if you share accounts you will be banned).

Leveling up a new character is NOT quick. Gearing up is NOT quick, or cheap (enchants for the lose). Have fun grinding all those various Shattrath factions to revered/exalted for the head/shoulder enchants too. Honor farming is absolutely mind numbing. Getting up to date PvP gear from arenas takes months.

Then, suddenly in patch X.Y, Blizzard might make a bunch of class changes, which completely screws one or two of the classes on your team, and therefore your team as a whole. At least in Guild Wars when they nerf skills, you can choose other skills that are almost as good, or simply switch characters (I have found that Guild Wars players tend to not be as invested in one character), without feeling that you have been kicked in the balls.